Roaring Camp Railroad

Chris · **Posted:** Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:46 pm

I see that the Disneyland Railroad refurbishment has the RCRR subject in it so here is a thread to put the rest of the facts on it. I am Aware that Ed, Boiler maker, and I got carried away in a conversation and blew the topic off :laugh: so here we can put the facts down that railroad.

Boilermaker · **Posted:** Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:31 pm

So what's all this about a diamond stack on the Heisler? I went to the RC web site, but couldn't find any recent photos.

The very first project I worked on was putting the rear truck for #2 back together. That was April or May of 1990. Tom told me it was foolish to want to come and work on the old steamers. "No money and plenty of frustration," is what he told me. Over the ten years I was there (Feb 1990-Dec 1999) we accomplished a lot in that little shade tree shop. No project, no matter how small, ever came easy. We froze in the winter and endured cab temperatures as high as 130 deg in the summer. But once you got out on the railroad, when everything was running well, you couldn't help but go to this peaceful place in your mind. Your body was an extension of the machine you were riding; nothing else mattered.

You'd get the highball from the conductor, two toots on the whistle and an "open up" to the fireman and off you went. Gaining speed and hooking uo the Johnson Bar untill the engine starts climbing School House Curve. The trick here is not allowing your speed to change as you go up and around so you run with the Bar. The track levels off then starts to drop as the train heads toward the switch that marks McSkunk Junction and the end of the lower loop. Grab a handfull of brakes, five or six pounds, maybe a few more; look back for your conductor; he gives you the friendly "alls well" nod; two toots on the whistle and the locomotive is heading up to Big Trees. Release the brakes and hook up the Bar. It gets darker and cooler. As fast as a cloud rolls past the sun and dims the light the giants of the Santa Cruz Mountains, the redwood trees, are over you.

Rolling out over Indian Creek Trestle you have had a little time to get to know what sort of mood your locomotive is in that day. Dixie (#1) and #7 were fairly predictable so the first trip of the day set the tone. The Heisler (#2) was a camel - it spit. Could never tell when things were going to go sour, they just did. On the trestle you can't help but plan an escape strategy should something happen to the trestle. Indian Creek is a wood trestle with a sharp curve, 3% or so incline and about 40 feet tall at its highest. You feel alive as you cross it on a steam locomotive.

Off the trestle and the run for the 8 1/2, the first hard pull up the hill. For the next half mile the ruling grade varies between 6 and 8 1/2 %. The noise is intense and you're on the sanders trying to prevent slipping. The throttle is OPEN and the locomotive is being run with the Bar. By now the radio has been turned down, can't hear it anyway, and any conversation you have with the fireman is with some made up form of sign language, like twin-speak. Approaching Deer Valley, you cut back on the throttle and hook up the Bar. Now you can make up a little water before the pull into Spring Canyon.

Tune in next time for another exciting episode of "Hogging at Roaring Camp" where we attack the Switch Back.

Steve B., hope its OK to jot down some memories from time to time. Its fun to relive this stuff (I will work on style) and as long as others are interested I'll keep contributing.

Ed Kelley · **Posted:** Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:24 pm

I saw that too...there's no diamond stack on the Heisler. I was just there 2 weeks ago now. I think Chris must've made a type-o or confused posts. However, the first two Heislers delivered to the eventual West Side Lumber Company were originally wood-fired, and did in fact have diamond stacks in the early days to serve a purpose. This was when the Heislers were working far into the forest, far before they were relegated to mill service and even far before any Shays arrived on the property. I don't know about the #2 (WSL #3), though, but the WSL #2 did for sure. If she did burn wood, she never will again, that's for sure.

I would guarantee the entire crew would walk off on the spot if anyone suggested it. I spent a few minutes ducking under the running board of the old goat while talking to Tom Shreve who was beneath it in the "pit" trying to get her back together. The BJWRR's facilities, on a larger scale, would be far better for Tom and the guys to get the work done...but then again, we're talking about a pole building with a mud-and-oil floor! The rear truck is back, and Tom was working to get everything else under there back together. Apparently in the logging days, I guess they used small turntables like those used on the West Side to turn the speeders around to get the trucks out. In a very strange way, I hope in the future to be able to perform one of those dirty, tiring, curse-out-the-metal-hulk jobs...

As for continuing the little blurb on the whistle...Phil had told me awhile ago he had the Star Brass 5-chime whistle in his care from the Swanton guys and had it up on the 7. Phil was with Roaring Camp on-and-off over the years and was on the crew that rebuilt the 7. When he left Roaring Camp to work for the Georgetown Loop, he took the whistle with him to Silver Plume, and used it on their two operating WSL Shays (the big, superheated #12, and the 14). Jeff I believe mentioned Norman Clark was interested in purchasing the 14 from the West Side; instead, it went to Hal Wilmunder and was used at the Camino, Cable & Northern (article on 'On Track' for the new issue due out later this week). Phil posted a reply to my whistle question yesterday, and he also mentioned they had this whistle on the 40, though never got to use it on her under steam. Phil returned the whistle to Swanton about a month ago.

As for it ever being at the Golden Gate Railroad Museum and used on the 2467, I don't know who said this, as it was elsewhere for the all of four years the PLA was able to operate the 2467, only one of which at the Point. However, I can speculate the possibility of how this story might have some truth to it; probably taking place in the early-90s, and with the 2472, not 2467. Neil Vodden, an old SP steam hogger from my town (Los Gatos) that worked for many years at Roaring Camp and also in the early-40s as a seasonal prune-picker at Billy Jones' orchard and aided in the Wildcat Railroad's construction, was involved in Project 2472 and ran the locomotive for the GGRM until he died a ways back. Interestingly enough, Phil (who trained under Neil) told me that Neil was often assigned to run the 2472 on the Peninsula line from San Francisco-San Jose, and was among his personal favorites to hog on the commute runs in the 50s. Neil was a good friend of Al Smith's and helped build the Swanton Pacific. Quentin Jervis, who purchased Overfair nos. 1914, the incomplete 1915, and the 1500, as well as the Hunslet "Gwen" from Billy Jones' in the 60s, died in the early-80s at which point his equipment was auctioned off. Al Smith got the 1914 and 1915, but lost the bid on the 1500 to Neil! (I don't know if Al knew Neil was even bidding or not). Al donated the 1915 to the California State Railroad Museum, where it's now a centerpiece in the lobby. Among the many things the incomplete locomotive lacked was a cab, so Milon Thorley (a well-known live steamer and for a time owner of the 12" gauge railroad in Folsom, CA, using Erich Thomsen's old "Cricket" from Tilden Park) got Al to give them the 1914's. In exchange, Milon's crew built a new cab which would allow Al to easily fit into with his prosthetic leg (he lost it in a work-related mishap on the SP).

Back to the 1500 (which operated at the Orange County Fair for a time on propane, some of you may remember it), Neil was still involved with the Billy Jones Wildcat Railroad at this time and I guess began to convert the locomotive to a 2-6-0T. When Al was President of the BJWRR I guess, someone proposed the idea of completely re-gauging the BJWRR and all of its rolling stock to make it interchangeable with Swanton; I don't know the whole story. Neil sold the 1500 to the BJWRR, and in 1995 Swanton purchased the locomotive (2 years after Al died) and brought it there. The guys there are working to get her operable again, along with the 1913.

Anyhow, I sort of went on several tangents here, but if the whistle was ever at the GGRM...I'd bet it was used on the 2472, and that Neil's involvement at both the GGRM and the Swanton Pacific would be responsible for it getting there. Phil would know the whole story, and he was also trained under Neil; I'll ask him when he gets settled down a bit as he's in the middle of a move.

I never get tired of hearing more about Roaring Camp. Apparently Kahuku was used on 'the hill' quite a bit at one time, per a story posted by Earl Knoob elsewhere, I could just imagine trying to get the little brute up the switchback. I think you'd need to genetically-engineer a three-handed individual to do the job a little less stress-free to try and sand, fire, and run her stress-free (or about as much stress-free as normal steam operation can get...)! Either that or rebuild the Spring Canyon trestle, or sand somewhere else. How I love that little engine...

Here's Neil with Kahuku on the wye in 1966. Phil told me that some of these pictures were used in Bruce MacGregor's first book on the South Pacific Coast.
[img]http://www.bjwrr.com/kahuku/neilvodden-kahuku-2lg.jpg[/img]

Edited By Ed Kelley on 1110858039

Ed Kelley · **Posted:** Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:47 pm

Guys, I'm not sure if this link will work as it's on the West Side Yahoo! Group, but here's a photo of the West Side #2 Heisler (out on display at a part in Tuolumne today, some cosmetic work I heard was planned) in 1900 as a wood-burner. I originally thought this was on Rick Hamman's photo print site, but after 10 minutes of looking remembered where it was...

[url=http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/sE82QlXRipWes1wppqJV_5epjjMkF_Jtdz1OMGxoREDXMe1mm1Qpo7oQwmac3nT6JQjwX3nb6L4yhR4HaX5hWCW8YR
E/Hart%20Corbett%20Photos%2C%20Maps%20%26%20Drawings/%20HEISLER%20%232--EARLY%20PHOTOS/Heisler%20%232-Nashton-c.1900]http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1....-c.1900[/url]

Chris · **Posted:** Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:35 pm

I messed up in the quote appearently it was the Cass Scenic Railroad heisler #6 that recieved a new diamond stack during its restoration, both heislers were overhauled at the same time and I got both of their restorations mixed up.

When the Georgetown Loop Railroad shut down, I contacted the Colorado Railroad Museum, the Roaring Camp Railroad, and the California State Railroad Museum in case they wanted the engines. They all said that they were interested and took my advice but it was the Colorado Railroad Museum that got all the rolling stock. As for the Phil, he might come back to Roaring Camp and work with Chris King who also worked on the Georgetown Loop Railroad on-off.

Both of them really love the #7 and they tried to run her as much as posible. The #7 is the crews favorite engine due to her greater power and reliability. The crew dosen't like the #2 but Kent, Norman, and Chris King, like the #2, and Doug dosen't seem to mind the #2. Doug finds all the locomotives as equally unique and different. But Tom, Roy, Jeff, and most of the other crew members hate her due to the fact she is hard to operate. If they hate Tuolumne, they will for sure hate Bloomsburg because a Climax has twice the amount of gears and the gears are harder to reach, not to mention that a large fly-wheel is connected to bevel gears and a long shaft. :O

Edited By Chris on 1110930538

Ed Kelley · **Posted:** Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:04 pm

Chris,
The Georgetown Loop equipment is still owned by Lindsey and Rosa Ashby, Leah and Mark Greksa (their daughter and son-in-law), and I believe Dave Ropchan holds part of the ownership. They haven't been sold, and they're are keeping them at the Colorado Railroad Museum for now, and the CRRM has and will be again operating them for their museum trains. Some people speculated the equipment may be donated to them. Some of the equipment may have a future elsewhere, at which I'm not at liberty (nor is it my place) to discuss at this point. Roaring Camp couldn't operate the 12, as it is pretty darn large for a NG Shay (and superheated). Per Tom Shreve, the 7 is almost too large to run there. Apparently the 14 was sought by F. Norman before Hal Wilmunder got it, so I suppose it could've tolerated the line.

Some former Roaring Camp crew members to have worked the Loop include Neil Vodden, Phil Reader, Kevin Wilcomb, and Natasha Bettis, to name a few. I never met Chris King. I'd hate to see anything more go to the CSRM, especially with all the budget cuts. The whole GLR Inc. is a complete mess. Phil has a new job with a private (at this time) narrow gauge operation in Southern California. I was just there and visited with him last week. Phil has also been involved with the Billy Jones Wildcat Railroad for more than 20 years. He expressed interest in rebuilding the little Mogul out back, and I think still does have interest in it, if everything would work feasibly.

I know Phil was a big fan of the 7. Kent Jefferies, whom I just met recently, obviously showed a real liking for that Heisler. I think Tom has a soft spot for it, too, but like you said most of them can't stand the thing. Crews tend to like Climaxes simply because they're a bit faster, and the drive rods and valve gear are still more accessible than the inward-tilted "V" cylinder arrangement on a Heisler. The Durbin & Greenbriar Valley (not far from Cass) has one, a friend of mine knows some of the crew members there and they love the thing. They've done a beautiful job on her cosmetic shape, too; nice simulated Russian Iron look as well.

Dixie is truly a masterpiece. Many of the crew members who worked for Norman Clark will tell you how he cared more of her appearance than any other locomotive on the line. She's apparently a gem to run, too, from what I hear...unlike the Heisler which I've been told is a real **** that you have to fight to run. A real Western engine, with several parts of scrapped local predecessors, including Santa Cruz Lumber #2. Dixie spent her entire working life previous to Roaring Camp operating for industrial shortlines in Tennessee and Virginia.

Made a little collage;
[img]http://bjwrr.com/ontrack/dixie.jpg[/img]

Edited By Ed Kelley on 1110937594

Chris · **Posted:** Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:31 pm

Here is a website that has a variety of geared locomotives.

[url=http://www.gearedsteam.com/]http://www.gearedsteam.com/[/url]

Here is a photo of Tuolumne in the 1940s.
[url=http://www.gearedsteam.com/heisler/images/west_side_lbr_3-color.jp]http://www.gearedsteam.com/heisler/images/west_side_lbr_3-color.jp[/url]

Ed, Appearently I found out that the former West Side #3 was originally a coal burner converted to an oil burner. She was originally built with gauge 36 trucks until 1937, when the mill workers broad gauged her for yard switching at the lumber mill. #3 spent most of her years doing that kind of job, When she arrived at Roaring Camp, she only had her trucks changed back to a gauge 36 because she was found in operating condition but required minor work to return to service.

I found out that railroads are different about heislers, the Oregon Coast Scenic Railroad, the Mount Rainier Scenic Railroad, the Sumpter Valley Railroad and the Cass Scenic Railroad, are very fond of their heisler locomotives. I have talked to the Crew at Cass and told me that Heisler #6 performs her work beautifully, she hauls more trains than shay #11, but she was down when I saw her getting something replaced in the middle truck. Shay #5 and Shay #6 haul the Whittaker trains while Heisler #6 and Shay #11 haul the trains up to Bald Knob Shay #2 is often on stand-by incase an engine would break. The Heisler is their main work horse and appearently different Railroads have different opinnions on locomotives.

Ed Kelley · **Posted:** Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:21 pm

I never heard of the #3 being coal-fired. Coal-fired locomotives were never common in California due to the fact it wasn't to be found there, and later was denounced for reasons of pollution. However, there were some, which were sparsely-tried and almost always quickly converted. The Pacific Coast I believe had a coal-fired engine in the early part of the last century, the V&T #25 was built coal-fired (in Nevada, but still...), etc.

Oil-fired locomotives worked to the advantage of the lumber companies due to the quite minimal risk one would cause a fire. If the forest would burn down, the railroad would be pretty much pointless and the company would have nothing to bring in a profit. Dixie and the #2 I believe were both equipped (and still are) with Worthington pumps in the event a fire should ever be spotted. These steam-driven devices would pump water through a hose from the tender tank. In addition, the pumps could be used to refuel a locomotive at a rural portion of the line where no refuelling facilities were availible...simply a reverse process...run the hose out to a pond, lake, or creek and fill 'er up! Better hope you've got proper water treatment chemicals on hand!

When the West Side standard-gauged her for mill switching and occasional moves on the Sierra, I understand the guys there widened the axles on her existing narrow-gauge trucks. When she was loaded up at Tuolumne in 1963 and arrived at Roaring Camp soon after, she was rolled off and operated (unknown to the Southern Pacific) on the standard-gauge SP line towards Santa Cruz for a bit, down to I believe the first tunnel on the line (since shut down, and the line re-routed around it). Norman Clark took several photographs of this memorable run (the last time steam ran on the line), and she was then converted back to narrow-gauge I believe using the trucks of the scrapped West Side #4 Heisler. Now I'm not 100% sure on this; Phil or Jeff gave me the whole story, though I seem to have forgotten it. If it's on the On Track article, that's correct, because Jeff helped me out and proofread that article.

The Cass Heisler was down for some time; I've never seen it. If you want to talk about a horrid whistle, there's your prime example of a downright vulgar "Hooter" right there. I need to get down there to see the old Feather River #3 (ie Cass 11) since she was "Cass-sized". For awhile at the beginning I believe she still ran as an oil-burner with her original stack before her origins were erased. I was sad to see the engine leave Campo; though praying for the PSRM to get her running again back in 1999 or whenever was a bit unrealistic. There is currently no steam at Campo, after the guys worked hard to get the 2353 back running only to have it sidelined when the FRA would require a Form 4 to get her going again! Same goes with the 2467, and countless other engines.

[img]http://www.bjwrr.com/ontrack/rc-dble2-lg.jpg[/img]

Edited By Ed Kelley on 1110947018

Chris · **Posted:** Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:39 pm

If you want to talk about a bad whistle, Cass #11 has the worst of any. It sounds beautiful if you hear it on a video or see it far away, but when you are sitting in the first seat right behind, OOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUCH! :angry: Its really loud. Almost every except me covered their ears. I didn't because my CD walkman was on full blast but even that couldn't save me from the loud whistle. Almost every time we were near a grade crossing, I warned the other passengers that the engineer was gonna blow the whistle and he did. It was not the LLSL grade crossing it more went SSLlllllSSSLllllllSLllllSLlllll. That is with out a doubt the loudest whistle in all history. It makes Tuolumne's old Hooter sound as quiet as a mouse. By the way I liked Heisler #6's hooter though I was saddened when it was converted to a 6-chime. Although the CSRR always changes their whistles on the engines except for Shay #11, I know you wouldn't like it Ed, trust me. That is one whistle you do not want to get close to.

Bruce R Pier · **Posted:** Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:19 am

Coal was the dominant fuel for mainline operation until about the turn of the Twentieth Century in California, when successful oil burners were developed. Coal was hauled to coaling stages along the lines . Even today there is a town in California whose name bears testement to it's origin,Coalinga. On the RR map it was "Coaling A". A town grew up around it, becoming Coalinga. Better know of late for an earthquake that occured the latter part of the 20th century.

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