I know little more about the FWRR than what I've read in Michael Broggie's book. From a historian's point of view there are alot of unanswered questions. The most obvious is, where did the idea come from, followed closely by how did the idea of a railroad get wings and what lead to its construction?

Disney Imagineers had already built two railroads (DL and WDW) when FW was built, but somehow that knowledge was lost. According to Michael's book, the fuel and water capacity of the locomotives was barely enough for a railroad of the size of FW and the track was poorly constructed leading to occaisional derailments. To me, understanding how choices were made and engineering issues resolved would make a fascinating story. Anybody have any insight or knowledge along these lines?

These are excellent questions. Unfortunately finding any information on the Fort Wilderness RR is next to impossible. I can only guess at some of the answers. The FWRR was Disney?s answer to a transport campers and guests through the campground, from the Outpost Depot (parking lot) to the Settlement Depot (Pioneer Hall). Disney forbids campers from driving their vehicles in the campground unless entering or leaving the campground. What better form of transportation in the wilderness is there than a steam engine?

The choice to use the small plantation type locos was most likely a result of Disney looking at Ward Kimball?s Chloe and Gerry Bests Olomana engines. These simple engines were used in Hawaii on tracks that were literally thrown down on the ground, and moved as needed.

Why Disney has Buena Vista construction lay the tracks was done mostly likely to save money (for the time being). They spiked the track right to the ties without tie plates and bent the track without a rail bender! One interesting note- I did talk to George Britton, and he told me in August 1976 he led a crew that re-ballasted & added tie plates to the entire line.

The fact that the FWRR turned out to be 3 1/2 miles long, and the engines had tiny boilers (holding 180 gallons, and a saddle tank that held only another 225 gallons) was a major over sight by MAPO. The solution to this problem could have been a additional water tower at the Settlement depot. The FWRR was built with one water tower at the Outpost Depot, and the saddle tank wasn't filled EVERY time the engine stopped there, it was doomed.

I'm certainly no expert on track laying, but to my knowledge, rail throughout history has been laid without benefit of a rail bender. As for rails being spiked directly to the tie--this has been done frequently as well, even on the Disneyland Railroad (although the powers that be have come to their senses and installed tie plates).

Anyway, I got to thinking--David--that the FWRR might make an interesting subject for you to author a book about. Ever thought about it?

I'll second that!

Our only camping at Fort Wilderness was long after the railroad was gone. Once I found out that they used to have one, I was a bit sad that I had missed it!

Steve(s) & BM,

While it may have been common practice to not use rail benders or tie plates on some track laying in the past, it came to bite Disney in the butt on the FWRR. The very tight turns combined with soft swampy ground put the track mechanics to the test, and it quickly became a problem. Kinks formed on the turns at the rail joins and the track went out of gauge. The small section of intact track we found had a massive amount of gauge rods installed- evidence they were fighting a serious problem. There was also tie plates installed, backing up George's story of the 1976 track 'upgrade'.

I would love to write a book about the FWRR, but right now I'm booked in a different way. Running a business and taking care of my family/kids consumes all of my time!

The thing that always gets me regarding FWRR is the fact that NOBODY even knows exactly when it stopped running. We've heard numerous reasons WHY, but not WHEN. All we have to go on are the odd tickets that turn up occasionally with a date on it. It just blows my mind that no records seem to exist regarding FWRR, and there aren't even any cast members (that have come forth) who worked the line and can give insight into the operation, including when it ceased. I realize we're looking at 20+ years since the last train made its final journey, but there still have to be a couple of people on the planet somewhere who were there and are still around. These are trains, after all, not dinosaurs!

There's a reason that it's hard to nail down the last operating date of the FWRR: it's didn't go out with a bang, but a whimper.

Even with the complete track replacement of 1976, the RR was a headache for Operations. In addition to the filling issue David mentioned, they didn't treat the water. When I pulled the steam gauge off of #4, the pipe that feeds it was 95% blocked by scale.

However, operational issues can be overcome: it's a matter of training and discipline. What really killed the FWRR, in my opinion, was the 3" Lunk sounding over every grade crossing not 50' from people sleeping in tents and trailers, everyday from 7 AM to 11 PM. The guests just didn't care for the railroad that much (David aside, of course) so it didn't justify dealing with the continual problems and expense.

What actually happened, as Jimmy Graves (the George Britton of the FWRR) explained to me, is that when an engine needed service, they'd just pull it off-line. Mine was in the middle of a total re-build, and they just stopped working on it one day. They got down to just using #3 (which has had the most recent overhaul), and then they started using it only for special occassions as a supplement to the busses. He doesn't recall the exact date they decided to never run it again, but it was sometime in 1980 (this is supported by the fact that we have never seen a ticket with a stamp after June 1980.) So, it wasn't like someone said, "That's it! Shut 'er down"; it was more, "well, we could fire it up if we wanted to, but we'll just wait a little bit more."

Oh, and as for who designed the engines, it was Bob McDonnell. He designed much of Main Street USA at the Magic Kingdom as well. They were definitely pattered after the Ohlomana. The coach bodies were styled on an urban trolley by Bob Gurr. The trains were built by Roger Broggie, Jr., and a crew at WED in Glendale. As for who came up with the "we gotta have a train in the campground" idea, I have yet to find that person's name.

Maybe because they don't want anyone to know!

Did you hear this directly from Bob, Michael? Because nearly every detail between the two engines is different, most notably the tank design, wheel arrangement and headlight design, and progressing to stack design, cab design, sand dome design and tender details.

I'll give you that the drivers on both engines are round, but as far as similarities, that's about all I can find!

Here is a picture of each loco:

[img]http://www.fortwildernessrr.com/history/glorydays/1996Collectorseries50.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.fortwildernessrr.com/history/building/olomana.jpg[/img]

Small correction, the ticket found was Jan 1980 (it was ripped over the A, so I can see how this was confusing). I know it was January because this was won off EBay within a package of tickets all marked in the Jan 1980 time period.

[img]http://www.fortwildernessrr.com/history/glorydays/ticket1980-450.jpg[/img]