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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:59 am 
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the trains will soon be chugging around the new park


...more like growling! :p (Or whatever that hideous sound of a diseasel locomotive can best be described as!)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:12 pm 
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I believe there were three trains ordered and built for the Hong Kong park. If not three, then four, but I'm pretty sure I remember hearing three. Tokyo and Paris started out with the same number when they opened up in 1983 and 1992, respectively. Kogyo supplied the "Mississippi" to TDR I believe in the 1988/89 timeframe (?), and Severn-Lamb built "Eureka" (the only live steam locomotive they have ever supplied to a Disney park) and had her in France in 1994. She's a real tribute to our good old California engines, including the spirit of Californian pioneering narrow-gauge; despite the 5/8 scale.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:20 pm 
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I hope the third engine is a 2-4-4T to match the Fred Gurley.

I know what you mean by the awful growling noise. To be honest I could care less about diesels :p and I found out that they are worse to the environment than a coal burning steam locomotive with all that horrible gasoline fumes compared to dirty coal smoke. The coal smoke is more dirty but not as toxic to the body as the diesel fumes.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:39 am 
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Chris wrote:
The coal smoke is more dirty but not as toxic to the body as the diesel fumes.

Chris, forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your comment, but you do know that the Disney steam engines burn diesel fuel, not coal, right? Petroleum distillate #2, as I understand it. The engines in Anaheim, Orlando, Tokyo and Paris still boil water, but burn diesel because it is much cleaner (and cheaper) than coal, and requires less maintenance.

I know I'm a little late to this party, but I really feel for Western River's position as an Imagineer working on HKDL. It must be like how the Imagineer assigned to "re-do" the politically incorrect parts of Pirates of the Caribbean felt: it's a virtually thankless job, and you just know someone is going to howl over the results. Well, I (and, apparently, most people on this board) respect your dedication to make it the very best Park it can be with the resources you have been given. While I certainly would prefer that all Disney Railroads run under actual steam, the alternative of "then no trains at all" is much more abhorrent.

Besides, as long as there is a railroad in Hong Kong, it can always be upgraded to real steam when an "enlightened" CEO is leading the company.

As for the recurring comments that "Walt would have...", it makes me think of his daughter, Diane. One of her pet peeves are the comments by legions of Disney fans that "Walt wouldn't have liked this", and "Walt would have done it this way." She, and many of the people who worked with Walt for decades, are quick to say that they simply could not predict him. So, if his own daughter won't hazard a guess as to what he would or would not have liked, there's really no point in our doing so.

Michael


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:23 pm 
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Well the diesel the oil that the steam engines burn is not as bad as the diesel oil coming out of the exhaust of a diesel engines. I knew all the Disney steam engines burned diesel oil, I was just saying that the diesel locomotives are cleaner but are more damaging to our health than the smoke of a coal burning locomotive. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:29 pm 
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I was just saying that the diesel locomotives are cleaner but are more damaging to our health than the smoke of a coal burning locomotive.


Have there been any scientific studies done to confirm/refute that?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:37 pm 
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If I remember, there were three trains built. All were given a 4-4-0 wheel arrangement if my mind is together as I type now, which as one could imagine greatly cuts down on costs for design and construction as parts can be cast/produced in bulk to similar patterns. While my guess is they're pretty much mechanically-identical (think DLRR 1-2), I'd bank that what the locomotives lack in a boiler is made up for by cosmetic detail and appearance. They're probably full of cosmetic character; each with a different theme and personality. Sort of like Fry's Electronics stores!

It also as-stated must be kept in mind the Imagineers themselves are working under hard circumstances due to the company's executive division as well. I'd certainly think probably some of the guys responsible for those trains are steam fans themselves; and probably had the bite the bullet in going for diesel, probably at corporate's orders. I once heard the reason for no steam was "pollution standards". I find this hard to believe; especially since the propane firing option puts out as much emissions as the gas range in your kitchen, but whatever. The order for those trains was placed quite some time ago; which shows it was obviously taken care of early for its known importance.

Kyosan Kogyo of Japan, and the Tangshan Locomotive Works in China both continue to advertise and/or manufacture steam locomotives. China is starting to electrify, slowly. Hong Kong is a modern city by all means, regarded by some as comparable to the New York of China. As Michael stated in unpredictability...why is Casey Junior the way it is? (obviously, they had enough trouble getting it done on internal combustion power as it is). Some railroad is better than nothing at all. If a certain management is unable or unwilling to properly maintain a steam railroad, it's also probably better it goes its own way as well. The real problem I'd have would be 'lowering standards', such as conversion to diesel years after a locomotive has been constructed and operating under steam. Six Flags over Georgia comes to mind. As long as the Disney steam railroads we've got remain powered by live steam, that's good enough. I never really planned on passing through Hong Kong anyhow, so it doesn't affect me. Yes, a steam railroad would be better...but as long as what we have stays, it's good enough.

Steam outline locomotives have their place; I never imagined it would be on any Disneyland Railroad. A few years ago, the Billy Jones Wildcat Railroad was seeking a 2nd diesel locomotive (since the line's only other motive power, steam locomotive #2, was down...and the other steam locomotive a mere pile of parts with no suitable boiler). I was working in the enginehouse and found a stack of papers on Chance Rides C.P. Huntington trains, and knew what someone was thinking, and made a nervous laugh. The board of directors did the same, stating the railroad's essential "make it look like what it is" policy. 2-spot looks like a steam locomotive, and is; 2502 looks like a diesel locomotive and is. While I hate to say it, amusement park steam operations aren't tourist railroads; to the majority of the visitors, and sadly to management in some cases, it can be "just another ride". I personally would rather see, if a steam railway was ruled 'not an option', that a park's diesel locomotives looked like what they are. Yet again, the public wants a steam locomotive, and as proven on various threads here and elsewhere, sadly most of them are unable to see past only looks. That's just how it is. The majority of the people in my current area I guarantee have never seen a steam locomotive in operation, with the exception of the WDWRR...maybe Busch Gardens' Crowns. The thought of a steam locomotive being treated as "Just another ride" by management is truly a scary thought. The crews for the most part know what they're doing; any trouble usually comes from corporate preventing them from doing their job. Lucky for them, they have the option of not having to put up with it.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:09 pm 
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Well its sad to say most theme parks and thinking of a steam locomotive as just a ride. What was more sad was, my girl friend never saw the look of a steam locomotive until she saw my model trains in the outline of looking and sounding like a steam. Not many people know or care about a steam locomotives existance, they just think its just an average train. And when I here the word choo choo, I feel very insulted because to me it pokes fun of the way how a locomotive works and sounds like. I find steam locomotives as living and breathing machines with lives of their own, and are always a good thing to see in real life. To me nothing is more beautiful than the sight and the sound of an old steam locomotive. It would be great if steam engines were the only type of locomotives in existance. They were not retired to polutions facts, they were retired because they were too much money and required an overhaul every 200 miles. Also they had to take on water a lot, and it takes two or more hours to have a steam locomotive fully fired up if the boiler is cold. The shortest time is to have a steam locomotive fired up in 45 minutes when the boiler is still warm. There is also a lot of oiling require and if the engines are not oiled enough, the cylinders make this awful squeaking and the engine sounds like its having difficulty moving. Compare to a diesel which requires work on the motor and wheels. Also you put keys in flick a switch and the diesel locomotive is ready to go to work. The new electric engines require a bit more work than a diesel but they can go really fast and can reach the next destination faster than a steam or a diesel. And pretty soon diesel locomotives are going to be as rare as an old steamer.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:26 pm 
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Chris wrote:
Well the diesel the oil that the steam engines burn is not as bad as the diesel oil coming out of the exhaust of a diesel engines.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the diesel #2 that the engines burn is the exact same diesel fuel that you can buy at some gas stations. [Steve D. - please correct if I'm wrong; you certainly know more about this than I do.] The singular difference is that it is dyed red; this is done to identify it as fuel that can not be used in the internal combustion engine of an automobile or truck. (This is required because diesel used in a car or truck is subject to federal and state transportation taxes; its use in a device such as a steam locomotive is not subject to these taxes. The fuel is dyed red to make it painfully obvious if someone is putting into a car or truck and attempting to sidestep the corresponding taxes.)

Having said, or rather typed, that I think that the exhaust coming out of a steam locomotive is not as bad as that from a truck because, well, it's coming from a steam locomotive! :;):

By the way, Chris, you've mentioned several times that you are 17. I think it is terrific that a member of the "under-21" set has developed such passion for steam trains. (It reminds me of myself about half my life ago.)

Michael


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:42 pm 
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I once heard the reason for no steam was "pollution standards". I find this hard to believe;


I can tell you this is a valid issue - I know it seems an all too convenient excuse, though.

I'm not an environmentalist, and I don't have any EPA data, but for whatever reason, local governments consider it a real concern.

And there is no diesel in HK... just regular old unleaded gas.


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