Hong Kong will not have Steam? - Will be diesel outlines instead?

Ed Kelley · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:00 am

WesternRiverRR wrote:

Quote:

I once heard the reason for no steam was "pollution standards". I find this hard to believe;

I can tell you this is a valid issue - I know it seems an all too convenient excuse, though.

I'm not an environmentalist, and I don't have any EPA data, but for whatever reason, local governments consider it a real concern.

And there is no diesel in HK... just regular old unleaded gas.

Now there's a fact not heard with all the rumors flying around. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. In terms of the larger amusement park 'steam profile' engines, I think that will be among the first; if not at least in the minority.

Regardless, (though we know there's obviously other factors here), the pollution matter I can't see interfering with firing a locomotive off your typical propane or natural gas compound if somebody wanted. Look at the San Francisco Zoo, for example. I know the guys at the GGRM had to bite the bullet to do it, but it was the only way steam could return there, and it did. But that's the key words; "If Somebody Wanted". Regardless of who it is, apparently it wasn't wanted. 90% of the 3' Crowns out there; including Busch Gardens (in at least Tampa), King's Island, as well as numerous 2' Crowns such as at Hersheypark and Knotts Berry Farm, all are propane-fired. Traintown in Sonoma has a Winton Mogul that they converted to propane about 30 years ago; rebuilt a few years ago by John Braun in Colorado (the holder of the Winton patterns, drawings, and rights).

Like I said, keeping the DLRR, WDWRR, and also the DLPRR and Western River (which being owned by Oriental Land Co, wouldn't be suspect; the Japanese are still quite into steam preservation) in steam is more important than if Hong Kong gets it or not. George Britton did a fine job of securing the future of the WDWRR's locomotives, and getting the job done right at Tweetsie. And over in California, it would be (even in 50 years) unimaginable to think of Disney killing the fires in what was once the personally-owned railroad of their founder. From what people say, Six Flags will probably never mess with the Texas operation for its history to the company...not to mention they don't own those locomotives.

Edited By Ed Kelley on 1109347318

Locoboy5150 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:47 pm

As a side note, one of the Crown locomotives at Bonfante Gardens was fired by propane and one was fired by diesel number two. The diesel fired one was built in 1966 and the propane fired one was built in 1971. Originally the 1971 model was also fired by diesel number two but Chadwell O'Connor at O'Connor Engineering converted it to burn propane when the locomotive was rebuilt there in 1986. The 1966 model was also rebuilt at O'Connor Engineering in 1986 but its fuel source was not changed.

Edited By Locoboy5150 on 1109357607

Steve DeGaetano · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:01 pm

I had the great pleasure of meeting the Executive Director of Ride Mechanical Engineering and an Associate Mechanical Engineer, Show/Ride Engineering from Imagineering. The Executive Director had an index of books in his library that was about 50 pages long--a great majority of them steam locomotive texts from the 19th and 20th century. The Associate Engineer loves trains, and they were a factor in his wanting to be an Imagineer. Josh seems to both know trains, and care deeply for them as well.

I think we should all take great comfort in the fact that these guys, and Josh as well, are train fans. They know trains, they like trains, and some of them even build model trains. They are doing the absolute best job they can, under the constraints they have, that they cannot alter.

One of the things about Disney that I always found fascinating was the work and effort that went into creating the illusion of reality. Like the brick buildings on Main Street. Look at those "bricks" sometime, and you will see what I mean. They aren't bricks, but are a compound molded to look like bricks, and each one is individually painted. That takes a lot of talent and work, but the "trick" works--the buidings look like brick!

I think the same goes for the HK trains. You will not be able to tell that these aren't real steam engines from picture--they're that well done. There really is "magic" in making a diesel train look like a steam engine, and I can tell you, the illusion is carried off exceedingly well. And that is, after all, a Disney hallmark too.

Nice job, guys.

Ed Kelley · **Posted:** Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:08 pm

Speaking of Bonfante Gardens-
I went out there on opening weekend and ran into Michael Bonfante in the park and talked to him for about 10 minutes about the railroad. He mentioned he had the 2 Crowns out in the enginehouse; this was 4/5 years ago now, but I somewhat remember he said he had them since converted from coal to oil, and was again from oil to propane? I didn't know Chad O'Connor rebuilt those locomotives until later on. He's also responsible in part for the rebuilds (not to mention complete 'builds' of the Golden Spike engines) of Jerry Best's "Olomana", Ward Kimball's "Chloe", his own Rogue River Railroad Porter (to Short Line Enterprises, now in Fillmore) "Sespe", as well as a Davenport 2-4-4 and Waimanalo #4 ("Deanna"; often visits Ardenwood in Fremont) which are both in private hands. I'm sure everyone knows the story of O'Connor and Walt Disney's meeting, and subsequently a factor in O'Connor's fame in film.

Anyone know where those Crowns went? I hear there were still worried about the heat with the greenhouse or something, then Paramount of course didn't want the burden of steam, which lead to the sale.

Michael Jackson's Crown I believe also still is fired off propane.

As for the illusions at Disneyland; have a look at [url=http://terraserver-usa.com/]TerraServer[/url]; the new, all-color "US Map" via satellite will give you a birds-eye view of Disneyland (including the enginehouse, as well as every part of WDW as well). Type in an address and look. Might even have your house. It's truly amazing how-well concealed everything is. The only real show buildings I can recall seeing is Indy via the monorail to the Disneyland Hotel. Since all the new construction, I don't know how much the monorail has been re-routed since '98. The key; trees, and lots of it. Frontierland Station in 1955 looked far from what it was today for that reason.

I hate to hear of the budget cuts. Glad to hear the subs supposedly finally got corporate approval, or so I was told by a friend. Kind of reminds me of what's happening to the guys at the CSRM, and why Sierra #3 can't be put back together...

Locoboy5150 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:52 am

It's funny that you mentioned Sierra RR #3 because I'm wearing a shirt with that locomotive on the front right now as I type this.

As for the Bonfante Gardens Crown locomotives, they were bought by an elderly gentleman and his son at the Norton auction several months back. I didn't have the chance to talk to them too much, but the son told me that they were planning on building their own park and were going to use the locomotives in it. I asked where the park was going to be located so I could ride the trains there, but he said that they had not decided that yet.

At the auction they had all of the locomotives' history on display for anyone to look at. There were numerous letters there written back and forth between Chadwell O'Connor and Michael Bonfante.

I sure couldn't bid on those two Crown locomotives so I did the next best thing and I snapped as many photos as I possibly could and I copied down lots of the information that was on display. That's where I got the stuff in my previous post. It was absolutely fascinating reading about the locomotives and their history.

Tracks N Slabs · **Posted:** Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:50 pm

The Intercot message boards are listing that the 3 HKDL trains have been named. One named after Walt, one after Roy O., and the 3rd is named after Franks Wells.

Has anyone else heard this, or can anyone confirm?

Chris · **Posted:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:06 am

The fourth and final engine might be named E.P.Ripley to match up what the DLPRR did to the C.K. Holiday but I am not not sure. ??? The fourth locomotive is to be out in a year or two after the park opens.

Boilermaker · **Posted:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:51 pm

[quote="Ed Kelley"]Speaking of Bonfante Gardens-

Anyone know where those Crowns went? I hear there were still worried about the heat with the greenhouse or something, then Paramount of course didn't want the burden of steam, which lead to the sale.

The engines were auctioned off a few months ago. I have no idea who won the bidding. A friend of mine went to the auction and said there were people from Asia, Europe and North America there bidding.

Locoboy5150 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:05 pm

I went to the Bonfante Gardens auction on 9-22-04 to photograph the items that were up for auction. I posted about it in this thread:

[url=http://www.burnsland.com/disneyrailroads/viewtopic.php?t=397]Bonfante Gardens auction 9-22-04[/url]

Edited By Locoboy5150 on 1109642726

Chris · **Posted:** Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:38 pm

Well the diesel engines at Great America are beautiful. I didn't know that they were diesel engines until I read it in a book. Also Beatrice and Elizabeth are very gorgeous looking pieces of motive power and you can't tell that their not steamers. If Great America and Opryland can make beautiful steam outlines, so can Disney.

Hong Kong will not have Steam? - Will be diesel outlines instead?

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