Hong Kong will not have Steam? - Will be diesel outlines instead?

WesternRiverRR · **Posted:** Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:18 pm

I appreciate that.

You're right - you're not even close to the top of the list when it comes to those that "denouce the parks." Perhaps I overreacted just a bit, but it's getting rather hard to log on to just about any of the Disney fan sites out there and see yet another group of folks complaining about your work - especially those that haven't got a clue about what it is they're complaining about. It really is one of those situations of "Fine. You think you can do it better? Be my guest!" And living in that world - imagine my joy to find the Disney Railroads Discussion Board... a place I perceived to be in favor of the parks and their railroads. You can probably guess how I felt finding yet another of the continuing threads about how "poor" HKDL will be.

Would steam have been great? You bet. Did we get it? Nope. But moving on... these trains look fabulous! Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water shall we? Steam or no steam, we're still getting another addition to the "things at Disney that run on rails" universe, and that's no small feat! Before joining WDI I spent several years doing new park development for folks like Universal, Paramount, Herschend, Premier, and others. You wanna guess the single hardest sell to a group evaluating an attraction matrix when reviewing the masterplans??? Railroads! NO one wants them. The maintenance, logistics, operation, and costs all add up to a very quick veto in our world. I'm not sure many people understand just what a coup it is to be getting another Disneyland Railroad... regardless of type. Moreover, don't think the specter of "modernization" is far off... for Disney or others... I'm sure Disney will be the very last to let the trains go... (and I'll be long dead, I hope, before that day arrives) but some of the other more beloved park railroads out there aren't bullet proof! Take Cedar Fair for instance... I can't speak to Cedar Point, but I know for a fact that the Ghost Town and Calico at Knotts is not viewed as sacred. More than once in planning discussions the phrase "just remove the train" has be uttered. And as far as steam goes, again Cedar Fair at one point was looking at removing the "steam" from the steam train at their Missouri park.

Let's not send the wrong message here, you know it's very easy for the accountanteers to simply say "well, if they only want steam trains, then they just won't get a train at all... that saves us even more money!"

Do I agree with the situation? Not at all, but let's try to keep a positive outlook...

No, "fake" steam engines aren't ideal, but the quality is there, the love is there, and the Disney touch (all be it not in the boiler) can been seen.

Not the best Disney trains? I'll give you that, but these are Disney trains nonetheless.

Edited By WesternRiverRR on 1105060275

Chris · **Posted:** Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:48 pm

As far as I know the Disney trains are not going away where, except the Disney theme parks they are at right now. All I know is steam or not Disney will never let their trains go and I am glad about that. Our beloved Disney trains are gonna be around for many more years.

Edited By Chris on 1103777315

chocolatetrumpet · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:04 am

Quote:

these trains look fabulous!

Are there pictures somewhere? I've seen pictures of the facilities under construction, but not the trains themselves.

Ed Kelley · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:29 am

From what reviews say, HKDL won't be too promising in the first few years. However, theme park ranting boards are as bad as movie-fanboy boards. Rome wasn't built in a day (Disneyland opened in 11 months, but that's to this day an amazing feat). MGM opened with barely any staple attractions in 1989; look at it now. And people sure gave it a hard time. (not to mention DCA, EuroDisney, and even Epcot)

Walt would be EXTREMELY upset about this if he were alive to see it. I'm linking a photograph of the equipment Walt almost purchased in the early 50s for his first Disneyland idea near the studio. The reason I am doing this is because Walt didn't buy this equipment because it was "too kiddie-like", and something he was "used to seeing in carny parks". These locomotives (there's 3 of them, an 0-6-0T, and an unfinished locomotive that was cosmetically completed to some extent for display at the CSRM). These locomotives are fine pieces of equipment...if Walt thought what he did of this, can you imagine what he'd think of a steam profile (fake steam) locomotive?!

In addition, I had heard the stories of the AT&SF wanting a diesel on the SF&DRR. The "Viewliner" would've been the answer, given it had stayed. If you're going to make a diesel, I say don't make it something it isn't. "Disney Magic" is all fake; but one thing that always remained real were the steam trains. Any type of locomotive can be made beautiful; and I have no doubt the Hong Kong locomotives were crafted with utmost excellence in Stratford-upon-Avon...however, they aren't of the legacy Walt would have wanted. While Walt may be "dead for 40 years", this is his dream, his legacy;when he died, he knew what he left behind. And I'd say by having steam at his parks, he had hoped there would always be a known place for steam to seen refuge...in his parks. The brisk whistle of a Disney train as it pulls up to the park gates and topiary Mickey; cylinder cocks open and in a cloud of its own steam, is like nothing else. You won't be able to cover up the hum of a diesel engine; smoke systems and sound will do some justice, but not much. Heck, I noticed after the first season and the promos, the sound/smoke systems weren't even used at Animal Kingdom. From the 98 TV commercials, one could almost be convinced they were really steam.

By the way, this locomotive (#1913) is currently under restoration in San Luis Obispo and Davenport, California by Cal Poly's Swanton Pacific Railroad. They currently run numbers 1912 and 1914. This shot shows the locomotive when at the Calistoga Steam Railroad in the Napa Valley. It only lasted a few seasons.
[img]http://www.bjwrr.com/ontrack/Images/calistoga1913.jpg[/img]

Edited By Ed Kelley on 1103830507

Steve DeGaetano · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:28 am

chocolatetrumpet wrote:

Quote:

these trains look fabulous!

Are there pictures somewhere? I've seen pictures of the facilities under construction, but not the trains themselves.

I was lucky enough to see two photographs taken as the engines were being unloaded. They are, without question, stunning pieces of motive power.

Steve DeGaetano · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:36 am

Josh,

I don't think you'll find a Disney board with as few "detractors" as this one. In fact, I don't think I've read any post here that really chastises Disney in the manner I see on the other boards. Everyone here, as far as I've read, is a real fan, especially of the Disney railroads. I've never seen the types of arguments that I can find almost every day on the other fan sites. And that's refreshing.

But that doesn't mean we're all going to start skipping lock-step down the yellow brick road, singing Disney praises in unison. People have differing opinions, and if they didn't, this board would get very boring, very quickly.

So stick around. I don't think you'll find a more loyal bunch of fans on any other website. I would bet that everyone here is as excited as me to know that we have an Imagineer here, who can help us in our understanding of the Disney railroads from a very interesting point of view.

Edited By Steve DeGaetano on 1103819826

Cannonball7 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:18 pm

Ed Kelley wrote:

If you're going to make a diesel, I say don't make it something it isn't. "Disney Magic" is all fake; but one thing that always remained real were the steam trains. Any type of locomotive can be made beautiful; and I have no doubt the Hong Kong locomotives were crafted with utmost excellence in Stratford-upon-Avon...however, they aren't of the legacy Walt would have wanted.

Ed - I couldn't agree with you more. If economics are dictating what power plant you can put in a park train, then don't disguise it...just build a beautiful "Disney diesel" train. (There was a similar discussion in another thread about the Animal Kingdom's "Wildlife Express".)

Josh - Please don't take any of our feedback personally. We know that you, the other Imagineers and Cast Members that frequent these boards are doing the best with what "the powers that be" are giving you....and we appreciate that!

I think we all need to recognize that steam trains were Walt's passion...as they are ours! Had wood roller coasters been his thing, the parks would have been full of them. I think all the discussion of "what Walt would do" and "what would Walt think" are not productiive. In this case, we all know that he would have wanted steam trains because he loved them so much - and it was a luxury he could demand at HIS parks.

Today, managment struggles with Walt's legacy and the challenges of running the parks in today's economy. It is a high wire act that has proven successful for Disney thus far. (Just look at Six Flags...they posted close to a 3% drop in attendance this year while everyone else was up. I'd also point out that they have either removed or dieselized all but two of their park railroads!)

My hope (and prayer) is that Disney's park managment team never lose site that it is the "total experience" that drives their business. Because once that is gone, their attendance will begin to drop just like Six Flags did when they focused only on big roller coasters and let the rest of the park decline.

Just my two-cents worth....

Ed Kelley · **Posted:** Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:30 pm

To be honest, the Hong Kong bit isn't going to hurt at least me personally. I don't plan on ever going that ways anytime soon, but it's really more of a principle. As long as nobody touches the existing steam railroads, that's really the MOST important thing. As it is, Imagineers from the sound of it are having to deal with all these corporate budget cuts. I feel bad for all the work done by WDI in 1998 and again in the past months to revive the Submarine Voyage; the first time to get nixed, and the second time not yet a reality because the big kahuna won't take a stroll down the freeway to the park unless there's a photo-op! To think he hails from just down the road, too!

Locoboy5150 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:10 pm

Quote:

I think all the discussion of "what Walt would do" and "what would Walt think" are not productive.

They may be counter productive from a fan's perspective, but from a business person's perspective they are very important things to think about. An investor may ask themself, "Why should I put my money towards a company whose business objectives are from the 1950s?" It sounds like I'm the only one that feels this way, but I think that it's an important question to think about.

It's probably just me, but I find that looking at anything in life from the other side of the fence helps me to understand where other people are coming from. It may not change my opinion on an issue, but at least it helps me understand their thought process and why they think the way they do. I was doing that with my prior post; trying to understand how investors look at these parks and putting myself in their shoes.

Edited By Locoboy5150 on 1104282951

Cannonball7 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:09 am

Locoboy5150 wrote:

An investor may ask themself, "Why should I put my money towards a company whose business objectives are from the 1950s?"

Locoboy - you bring up some interesting points. However, I think your question could be a double-edged sword for Disney.

Investors could be concered with a company that is always looking to its founder's original vision and not looking forward to today's world... OR Investors could be concered by a company that is abandoning the "core businesses" established by its founder that made it the giant it is today.

Disney has received a lot of bad press for shuddering its traditional, cell animation house in Orlando (where most of its recent animated hits came from) in favor of building a "Pixar-like" computer animation facility in L.A. - particularly when it would just be less capital investment to renew the Pixar agreement.

They have also caught investor back-lash from taking (what is preceived as) shortcuts in the development of DLHK. Dinsey committed this same error with EuroDisney and then had to spend millions to correct the problem and today, it is a successful and profitable park.

Hong Kong will not have Steam? - Will be diesel outlines instead?

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