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 Post subject: Fred Gurley's Sister coming to Orange Empire
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:54 am 
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Stumbled across this Facebook post from the Orange Empire Museum's Steam Department about a possible visiting engine. According to them, it is one of the Fred Gurley's sisters from her plantation days in Louisiana and certainly looks pretty spot on to the Gurley (minus the cab which would have matched with the Gurley prior to getting her new cab at Disneyland). Heck, I don't know what paint the plantation engines were originally in, but whoever is restoring this engine definitely went with a Fred Gurley style paint with the red wheels, hunter green cab/tank, dark sapphire boiler, and black domes.



https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10154800037712891&id=88914552890

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 Post subject: Re: Fred Gurley's Sister coming to Orange Empire
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:00 am 
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Thanks for the heads up. What a beautiful locomotive. After looking at DRR Engine 3 for so long, the original 0-4-4T wheel configuration looks a little strange to my eyes now. It's hard to describe in words but it just looks "odd" with the pilot sticking out there with nothing underneath it. Looks-wise, I'm glad that Roger Broggie (or whomever was ultimately responsible for the decision at Retlaw) decided to add the leading wheels.

While we're on the subject, why were the leading wheels added to the Fred Gurley? I thought that leading wheels were used to kelp keep steam locomotives on the track when negotiating high speed curves. The DRR certainly doesn't operate at high speeds though. Were they added just for looks? I'm glad that they were added but that seems like a lot of effort put towards just esthetics. I'm sure that I've read the official reason somewhere but I can't remember it.

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 Post subject: Re: Fred Gurley's Sister coming to Orange Empire
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:32 am 
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The lead truck helps guide the drivers through curves and turnouts. It also helps cut down on "hunting" which locomotives that don't have them do at any kind of speed. I can attest to that. When I was at Cedar Point we had one locomotive left on the roster that didn't have the pilot truck installed (yet, it got it the year after I left). It would rock side to side severely when you got any faster than a crawl. You braced yourself against the back of the cab and held on tight for the duration.


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 Post subject: Re: Fred Gurley's Sister coming to Orange Empire
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:20 pm 
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The first photo on this page is one I've never seen showing the engine that would become the Fred Gurley:

http://hawkinsrails.net/steam/gsc/gsc.htm

It's rare to see the stack cap on her.

One of the Gurley's sister engines (literally a sister--the serial number is consecutive with the Gurley's--14064 and 14065) was in a private museum in, I believe, Ventura. I have an image of it on my home computer, but haven't been able to find it again online. There were five engines built to the same specifications as the Gurley, so I'm not sure which this one might be.

There may have also been some mix-up over the years as to which plantation the Gurley was sent to initially--Godchaux owned several.

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 Post subject: Re: Fred Gurley's Sister coming to Orange Empire
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Steve DeGaetano wrote:
The first photo on this page is one I've never seen showing the engine that would become the Fred Gurley:

http://hawkinsrails.net/steam/gsc/gsc.htm

It's rare to see the stack cap on her.

One of the Gurley's sister engines (literally a sister--the serial number is consecutive with the Gurley's--14064 and 14065) was in a private museum in, I believe, Ventura. I have an image of it on my home computer, but haven't been able to find it again online. There were five engines built to the same specifications as the Gurley, so I'm not sure which this one might be.

There may have also been some mix-up over the years as to which plantation the Gurley was sent to initially--Godchaux owned several.


The photos that the OERM posted don't show the builders plate (hard to tell with the low light if it's there but out of focus or just missing from the smokebox) but I'm sure once the engine goes out to OERM that it's identity would be revealed. That early photo of the Gurley was actually the one I referenced while comparing the two engines, it appears this one still has the "original" cab, or at least one that was similar to the one the Gurley at that time.

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 Post subject: Re: Fred Gurley's Sister coming to Orange Empire
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Yes, while Baldwin and other builders did offer all-enclosed cabs similar to the Gurley's current cab, this model had the open cab like the early photos show, and similar to the Kimball's current cab. Very utilitarian.

I can check the spec sheets when I get home to find the original colors if they're listed--I suspect they were similar to the Maud L's (planished iron jacket and "olive" for the cab/tender/domes)

Since the Godchax engines were numbered, I doubt they would have had star number plates, so that may have been a change.

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 Post subject: Re: Fred Gurley's Sister coming to Orange Empire
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Locoboy5150 wrote:
Thanks for the heads up. What a beautiful locomotive. After looking at DRR Engine 3 for so long, the original 0-4-4T wheel configuration looks a little strange to my eyes now. It's hard to describe in words but it just looks "odd" with the pilot sticking out there with nothing underneath it. Looks-wise, I'm glad that Roger Broggie (or whomever was ultimately responsible for the decision at Retlaw) decided to add the leading wheels.

While we're on the subject, why were the leading wheels added to the Fred Gurley? I thought that leading wheels were used to kelp keep steam locomotives on the track when negotiating high speed curves. The DRR certainly doesn't operate at high speeds though. Were they added just for looks? I'm glad that they were added but that seems like a lot of effort put towards just esthetics. I'm sure that I've read the official reason somewhere but I can't remember it.


As Bruce pointed out, the pilot truck helps guide the engine's drivers (sort of by nudging the suspension) into a curve. Doesn't matter the speed. The Gurley's pilot truck isn't just for show--it is actually functional.

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 Post subject: Re: Fred Gurley's Sister coming to Orange Empire
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Forney's were originally intended to be operated tank first, thus making them a 4-4-0, but for what ever reason this practice didn't catch on and for the most part they were run boiler first, when ever possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Fred Gurley's Sister coming to Orange Empire
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:56 pm 
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Bruce R Pier wrote:
Forney's were originally intended to be operated tank first, thus making them a 4-4-0, but for what ever reason this practice didn't catch on and for the most part they were run boiler first, when ever possible.


If I'm not mistaken, a lot of early Maine two foot engines were 0-4-4T Forneys but subsequent orders for engines were all 2-4-4T's with the pilot truck. At least for the time being with the railroad down, the Ward Kimball is being used for running tank first in which the intent of the original design would be put to good use.

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 Post subject: Re: Fred Gurley's Sister coming to Orange Empire
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:49 pm 
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TFN5459 wrote:
Heck, I don't know what paint the plantation engines were originally in, but whoever is restoring this engine definitely went with a Fred Gurley style paint with the red wheels, hunter green cab/tank, dark sapphire boiler, and black domes.

TFN, the specification sheet from Baldwin called for finish "D106," and the painting style "214," consisting of "olive green and color." This is probably very close to the same finish that the Maud L had, so if you have my book on the Kimball or the most current DRR books, you can see what the color scheme may have looked like.

The spec sheet indicates that there were six engines built based on this exact design. Baldwin numbers them 6, 7, 9, 10, 14 and 15 (Keep in mind these aren't engine numbers). In the mid-1890s, Godchaux had (at least) three railroads: one at Reserve (operating the Belle Point and Reserve RR), the Lafourche, Raceland and Lockport RR, and the Raceland and Belle Pointe RR.

On the spec sheets you can plainly see that Baldwin no.'s 7, 9 and 14 were lettered for the Lafourche, Raceland and Lockport RR, and Baldwin 15 was lettered for the Raceland and Belle Pointe RR. The numbers for the two engines lettered for the Belle Point and Reserve RR are harder to see (however the lettering is clear), but it's logical to conclude that they were 6 and 10. Since the engine that became the Fred Gurley was the first engine purchased, it's also logical to conclude that Baldwin No. 6 was lettered Belle Point & Reserve RR on her tender.

This flies in direct contradiction with Disney lore and "history," which has always said that the Gurley had originally run on the Lafourche, Raceland and Lockport RR. Of course, they also said she ran to the "shipping docks of New Orleans," another tall tale from the realm.

Baldwin 6 was No. 1 on the Belle Point & Reserve RR

Baldwin 7 was No. 1 on the Lafourche, Raceland and Lockport RR

Baldwin 9 was No. 2 on the Lafourche, Raceland and Lockport RR

Baldwin 10 was No. 2 on the Belle Point & Reserve RR

Baldwin 14 was No. 3 on the Lafourche, Raceland and Lockport RR; and

Baldwin 15 was No. 3 on the Raceland and Belle Pointe RR (I don't have any other indication of what or from whom the first two engines were).

It will be interesting to see which engine is going to Perris.

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